[00:00:00] The Bio-Individual Podcast, Imperium.

[00:00:16] I've been doing spreadsheets all day so my mind is primed to discuss a theory of thinking and thoughts.

[00:00:23] I guess for the audience we can just summarize that tonight we're going to be talking about the nature of thought and the nature of thinking.

[00:00:32] In a general sense, I forget how we got to this point but we're talking about separating out what we think about when we say thoughting as opposed to thinking, which I suppose qualitatively and practically two different things.

[00:00:53] So I think just for starters, maybe a good way to begin with just to pass out what we mean by this or what you mean by this or what I mean by this.

[00:01:04] And I just want to, you know, for all the people who are psychologists and other people like that, this is not going to be like a full-on psychology theory lesson.

[00:01:13] I think it's going to be more practical and more bio-individual, more usable.

[00:01:18] I know academics, cognitive, behavioral, therapy, stuff.

[00:01:22] I'm just going to be talking about thoughting and thinking and the differences from a bio-individual perspective.

[00:01:30] So correct me if I'm wrong but this is a Christopher Hyatt kind of thing isn't it?

[00:01:35] The Christopher Hyatt framing. I'm pretty sure.

[00:01:37] Yeah, that's the first place I heard this. Don't remember where he said exactly all the places but it's in one of the black books where he's saying he's distinguishing thinking from thoughting because lots of people think they're thinking but he refers to actually what they're doing is just thoughting which I'll, how do I read a quote from one of his black books.

[00:01:55] I forget which one is he's talking about.

[00:01:58] He introduces the idea he's talking about brain pollution and people have impluted brains.

[00:02:03] They say, quote, brain pollution whether on screen or off screen conscious and unconscious is the norm particularly when it comes to thinking, quote, in thinking's in quotes which we prefer to call thoughting thinking is complex and requires work lots of work.

[00:02:19] Understanding word usage history analysis logic proof etc thought in thoughting however is easy.

[00:02:26] Simply requires the repetition of popular clichés lessons from childhood consensus on the opinion of the thought is end quote so he there's more to it but I won't read it just now because this is out context.

[00:02:39] So the basic idea of thoughting is just things that I would distinguish the difference between thinking being active and thoughting being passive not quite correct but it's a good way to start thinking about.

[00:02:50] By the way, thoughting is to be distinguished from thought PhD O T it's not thoughting like that something else but it also doesn't have much to do with thinking so anyway thoughting T H O U G H T I N G

[00:03:04] So anyway, the way I like to frame is thinking is something that's active it's intentional requires as he says their work.

[00:03:14] You have to actually clarify what it is you're wanting to the problem to solve if you have to have to have to be clear about your definitions.

[00:03:22] You have to look at the relationships between the different ideas or objects involved or people involved.

[00:03:28] Thoughting is just words and phrases and shout that just comes up into your head all the time all day long anyway.

[00:03:33] So people get people will say, I've been the classic as I'm overthinking it. I just think too much I'm overthinking it those people are always thought I never thinking because it's just words attached to emotions.

[00:03:45] They're kind of feeling with words or maybe the words are kind of just a wrapped in on top of all these unprocessed feelings and they usually just go round in circles and no CD loops or they just rip.

[00:03:56] It's never usually useful it never does it's never functional in their life is usually a pain.

[00:04:01] So you get people who are you know they can't control themselves talking things like this so what does that mean that means that words are just appearing in your head against your will.

[00:04:10] So these things are all motivated by whether it's emotions that are you know you've got an amount needs so they're like genuine emotional problems that you need to solve but you instead of solving them, you're just thoughting up some words or whether they're there.

[00:04:22] It's just some complete to function dysfunctional thing that you've have weird mind body habits you go into but it's very easy to convince yourself because they're using words language concepts appears you're using concepts.

[00:04:35] So you think you're thinking or you thought you're thinking back so you're thought so it's a kind of how I frame the difference is our normal life i'm not going to go into the technical explanations of either doesn't really matter.

[00:04:48] So for me the goal is to stop thoughting and start thinking more and to do that you well like in our sphere when people realize that they're overthinking quote when they're overthinking really their thought when they're out of control negative self talk usually the methods people gravitate towards are things to just destroy.

[00:05:07] The words in the head they want to get rid of language you know stop thinking it's always until intellectual solutions you know with some kind of meditation or you know like really stupid interpretations of Indian mysticism where you're just not to think you know what is happening you know all this kind of stuff but there's another way you can you can go from thought into thinking which is to start learning to organize and manage yourself talk.

[00:05:30] By actually applying it to things by reasoning about things and being clear about definitions and the relationships between things and actually try to solve real problems by thinking it's through figuring things out that has a real world action actions important for real thinking solace kind of directed action otherwise you just go around circles in your head it's like the thinking.

[00:05:50] Thinking thought part is like kind of the middle part of the process there's like you're in the world and you want to do something and then you use them as tools go back into the world and do what is one in the world.

[00:06:00] But if people are thoughting usually it's just they're stuck in the middle part of the process where the words is just going around the mountain and the big M&M themselves rather than a tools for doing things so that's how I see how do you see how.

[00:06:10] Sorry yeah no it's it's a really good explanation so I think yeah he does say that so he says yeah thinking is complex and requires work as opposed to what you're describing which is the out of control reactive highly reactive thoughting and so yeah I think you're already quoted this but I've just actually just found it in the black book here I've just got it on kindle actually so yeah he says that it requires understanding word usage history analysis logic proof

[00:06:38] as hallmarks of what proper thinking is which also require discipline and energetic expenditure which people are very rarely into so yeah I definitely agree with that I think from a Zen perspective just maybe to offer something a little bit of a different take but very much in line I think with what you're saying.

[00:07:00] So I also had this in my Zen course when I was explaining kind of the the Zen meditation idea of how sensory events lead to 14 cascades I guess you could say so you can i'm going to put the slide up here i'm going to cut it into this podcast so people can see it if they're on YouTube but I think a good way to view it and and this is encapsulated in the story of the two arrows which was.

[00:07:28] In Buddhism is a discussion between the butter and one of his students and basically the gist of it is that he was saying that you know things happen to you in life so you have the sensory event that occurs so the event in the real world untarnished by by thoughting or reaction and then you have the reaction to the sensory event and then what he says is to avoid the reaction.

[00:07:52] So I'm going to talk about the sensory event and then to the sensory event or at least to exercise some over it as a way of I guess short circeting thoughting but what I notice in myself when I get wrapped up in layers of thoughting is that i'll have a sensory event which as a set is it tends to be out of our control then you have I suppose an emotional or a feeling reaction to an event which is.

[00:08:20] Unless you're aware of it and you've been working on it, then we have this kind of phase of cognition and a kind of construction of thoughts surrounding the event and an abstraction.

[00:08:33] About the event now all these stages for most of us most of the time i don't think i'd be exaggerating when I say that pretty much entirely thoughtings because they're the things that just kind of happen.

[00:08:47] And they happen without our conscious direction and part of I think what meditation is really about is kind of getting a handle on this.

[00:08:57] Reactive propensity and I think it's true to say that the reactivity is the way that we've been taught when we were young some of the ways that we.

[00:09:09] We derived some of the ways that we derived with our irrational minds in terms of how we should react to things like a lot of the ways that we react to things happened before we had.

[00:09:22] Any choice or say in the matter so we tend to have patterns of reactivity patterns of thoughting and these patterns I suppose I tend to I think the best way to put it but maybe they they give flavor to reality they give flavor to our.

[00:09:38] Our particular experience of reality and interestingly I think that this then this process and the thoughtings that we have then feedback into the lower down reactivities that we have to events that come later so.

[00:09:55] This is where we could tie in the idea of people being or all of us really unless we're careful being self fulfilling prophecies right because we have these patterns of reactive thoughting which are based on kind of.

[00:10:08] Metaphysical beliefs that we were imbued with or that we came to conclusions to when we were young and irrational and these things tend to just continue on into adulthood and sometimes they're adaptive sometimes they're non adaptive really kind of depends for many people what they're imbued with is completely self defeating.

[00:10:31] And I think that it's probably true to say that for a lot of us a lot of our patterns of thoughting her pretty self defeating but I guess my general view is that thoughting is really a.

[00:10:43] Compulsive physiological reactivity it's a part of that total sensory process that goes on and I totally agree with you that doesn't then mean that we need to get rid of it completely because it is there it's adaptive it's useful what we do.

[00:11:01] What I want to do is I think gain some understanding over our physiology and how our physiology interacts with our thoughting and perhaps if you're really into it if you really want to go far with it actually try to exert some control over thoughting itself and and how it happens which you can do with things like meditation or bodywork or whatever else so I think that's you know that's the way I tend to frame this kind of thing and of course just to reiterate using thinking.

[00:11:31] As opposed to thoughting so the deliberate use of thinking which requires a discipline sitting down at a desk taking notes reading creating something whatever it is and trying to prioritize that over over reactive mechanism of thoughting so that yeah that's my general view on it.

[00:11:49] Yeah I think it seems to be related to the same thing almost as solving a problem even if you think of creating sign or artistic it's still it's a problem still problems all the it's just not the step by step rational way that we're used to thinking of problems all the minutes like they have a feeling or an intuition that they're trying to find or you know show demonstrate to other people or however it is or there's just try to get rid of something in them that they have to create to get rid of the things so there's still.

[00:12:19] It's still solving something so when you're you're not just letting things happen to you you're although you know you could be thinking later the answer comes to you that kind of happens to you but you prodded it in the past so it's not quite the same thing it's that's more a result of your active work and so there's definitely an active passive thing to it a little it's not quite that and thinking's tiring so like as an example if you I when I was doing all this the posture work in the movement work originally it was all feeling based stuff where you had people had hands on you.

[00:12:49] You can move you around the stuff and you just try to you know feel free and find a feeling of freedom and then try maintain the feeling and stuff like that it's very known intellectual and it's easy and you're looking for pleasant feelings and all the time and it usually gives you energy because you release intention and you have feel good from it whatever but when you actually go to think so when I realized that wasn't solving the problems I wanted it wasn't actually fixing my posture in the way I wanted it wasn't a control of it and we know what was happening.

[00:13:13] So when I try to figure out and I started reasoning and thinking about the different movements of how the parts relate to one another and how the actual physical mechanisms of your body actually work.

[00:13:24] And then how your psychological mechanisms interact with them and control them and you know the back and forth between quote mind quote body and it was really tiny really really tiny especially in the beginning you just that.

[00:13:36] You know like you've been a fear struggling with some kind of intellectual problem really struggling and you just can't figure out it's tiring is draining on you often then you quit and you're the answer will pop it your head randomly later again it's not possible if you did the work earlier in it you did the thinking and then the result.

[00:13:52] And then you have to wait for the grass to grow anything but there's a definite action oriented energy using component to thinking so mentally it's tiring it's hard work because like science took a lot of hard work from people to get to this stage it didn't just appear naturally it's not natural thinking.

[00:14:11] To be that meticulous about things and to set up the situation where you're assuming that what you feel is true isn't true and you're going to go out your saying idea you're saying I'm such a way that you're going to learn things even if you don't expect them and do think it's wrong and you don't think you'll work whatever because of science you know i'm not saying they can't really do that anyway.

[00:14:33] Anyway, all of them so you for thinking it's it's action it's like doing things in the world that's like I came to this this idea really late I didn't understand this at all when I was young I also was.

[00:14:44] You were doing things was one thing was all the physical stuff in the world and then thinking this is other thing where you just it's kind of all just.

[00:14:50] Variations of interesting maths problems that it's nice to figure out but that's just all it's for and you can somehow get to the truth of everything just by doing that totally separated from from.

[00:15:01] The physical world is just don't think that anymore it's so obvious that thinking is intertwined with practical action it's like a thinking is practical first as an example there's a you know there's some of the like.

[00:15:12] Some of the old pagan gods started as like a the god of practical it was a very practical physical thinking but it's more like the study like kind of canning thinking came first and then the more abstract what we think of philosophical stuff came later so is like the embodied.

[00:15:31] Fixed or figuring things out and then one thing and then doing the other you know like hunting in all these things that you know develop thinking develops to hunting is what I'm thinking developed and.

[00:15:41] Just making it obvious what you're doing your your pretend you know it's like sparring in our large your pretending one thing and then do something else like half of sparring is lying pretending so this is for thinking as we think about abstractly grew out of so you.

[00:15:55] It's comes from doing things in the world getting things are avoiding but getting good things are avoiding bad things so when we're just in your head with words can round around around you completely lost track of what.

[00:16:07] The whole purpose of it is just gone it's the words language has become then and instead of a means to do things in the means of communication means of making things happen.

[00:16:18] It just becomes an end in itself and is it is a tool it's just the you might drill is still just fighting away line on the ground and no one's holding it anymore yeah.

[00:16:28] You know interesting so so how is say in terms of your work so what i'm sort of getting from this a little bit is maybe there's a little bit of a difference then between focus and unfocus so maybe that's another frame to look at it in for example thinking in a very real sense requires a lot of focus.

[00:16:47] Whereas thoughting that seems to be almost the precipitate of unfocus so it's things that are going on in our heads that really show that we are we're not focused on something so one of those is passive I guess being unfocused is passive and then being focused is is active but both obviously very important right like so.

[00:17:08] Yeah you need both I mean yeah when we are unfocused your unfocused your listening to people listening to intuitions and things but that's the end up conflating being silent and waiting for intuitions or whatever it is however they can.

[00:17:22] They conflate that with thinking so quite you know that there's different ways of thinking in a broader sense but it's so easy to just end up thoughting when you think you're doing that when you believe that you're doing that it's things are just coming to you and then you believe in them and then you act on them and then you get people just believe crazy things and do

[00:17:37] crazy stuff because they haven't actually they haven't tested what they've caught spot well it's thought anyway sorry no no that's quite all right interestingly so I came across some data recently where the default mode network which I guess is responsible for thoughting when we think about it so that's the that's the brain recruitment of various brain circuitries that we use when we're unfocused on something so it actually uses 20% of the body's energy when it's unfocused.

[00:18:07] Conquer to when we do focus on something the 5% that which seems relatively small which I found actually fairly shocking I would have thought it was the other way around but it seems actually at least in terms of energetic expenditure that the unfocused of the default mode network so the thoughting element is actually more energetically expensive than when we apply effort to something but I suppose in a way it's you know it's

[00:18:37] kind of understandable but maybe what what we want to think about then is you know how do you how do you shape and how do you change the quality of what happens when it rests so when you're default mode network kicks in I suppose you're

[00:18:56] in a bit of a flow state this thought is going on you're not focused you know how do you influence the quality of that state which has always been a great interest to me given that's something that is still important so you surprised by that I was surprised by that when I want to write it and of course

[00:19:14] so I think it's more yeah yeah I would have thought that if you're in intense an intense state of focus given how hard it is to maintain that that it would be more energetically expensive than in a state of unfocused

[00:19:29] It might be because it's that's that default mode network then it's that's connected with what your actual ordinary weirdness experiences

[00:19:38] what you're experiencing right now it's connected with that so the energy is kind of used by existing by knowing your existing as much as people do sure don't know maybe you're right no idea either I was just surprised

[00:19:52] but like as an analogy like it would be like the default one network you're just it's like you dig it's like there's a certain amount of energy your body has your think goes into your thinking or your brain or body of

[00:20:04] or you want to think about and you know you're just stuck in the same you know reality tunnel is over on to the most guys you see

[00:20:11] but the same amount of energy is just going to go round and round and same you've only dug a few ditches

[00:20:16] and then the water's flowing in the same ditches whereas if you've done lots of different things and if you've instead

[00:20:21] have been so rigid you're more open if a different experience is and thought different things from different angles

[00:20:26] and basically just trying to be more intelligent there's more ditches for the word of flow through so all the

[00:20:33] empowered and energy isn't going you know you haven't built up a dam in a few ditches where all the

[00:20:37] using up all the energy it's been spread out more don't know this relates to what you're saying

[00:20:41] about but that's one way I think about sometimes but it's not like I don't think it's literally like that

[00:20:47] I mean one thing that people do in order to change the quality of their everyday thought or their

[00:20:52] default mode network or whatever you see it's not so much festival now but was affirmations

[00:20:58] so they're getting thoughts that they don't like their negative so they done for the medicine say

[00:21:03] a different say a word that are nicer thoughts so they try to push out the bad thoughting with some

[00:21:09] good thoughting you know I mean but it's just it's it's out of control thought as a period so rather

[00:21:15] than dealing with the problem which they are actual problem is the fact that this is just out of control

[00:21:20] what they do is they just find danger slightly so it's more pleasant you know it's still

[00:21:25] likely to be out of control but just putting some new words and then hopefully become automatic

[00:21:29] and happen so always whenever you look at people doing stuff itself development 98% of the time

[00:21:34] it's always try to find something that if they just do this one this one simple trick

[00:21:39] then they won't need to think about it again it's always throw away responsibility for thinking

[00:21:43] in layer always it's always like how long with this how long before this is autumn like I don't

[00:21:48] need to think about this that's how they're thinking all the time so affirmations was like was

[00:21:52] this so like basic quick way of doing that there is some use in it actually because it can

[00:21:57] push you towards other digging you ditches you know I can push you in a direction but it doesn't

[00:22:02] solve it you know just to change the direction however but the problem is the fact that you have

[00:22:08] no conscious volitional control over the use of words in your head I mean but you have to think

[00:22:13] about people you words are for using you use them they're not like let them happen to you this is

[00:22:19] why like William Barrows and those you know the languages of I this and you know you're just

[00:22:24] Carl Jung ideas have people people don't have ideas you know like and stuff comes from this because

[00:22:29] I'm just thought in the same thing I'm not saying there's not some things to what they're saying

[00:22:33] it'll just something to it but it's you don't need to be the victim of all the time techniques for

[00:22:39] doing that though there's there isn't really that many we've talked about Kerzybsky general semantics

[00:22:44] a good one for taking control of the words because the verbalizations that you have will be

[00:22:49] connected with feelings and reactions are coming up based on those words and then when you start

[00:22:54] peeling apart the reactions in the sensory world from the verbal world and over time you stop

[00:23:00] reacting straight away to the word as all the feelings and other thoughts don't come along with

[00:23:05] a certain word automatically because you're now seeing it as a sort of abstract tool that can help

[00:23:10] meditation obviously how the danger of meditation is that people try to just kill off all of

[00:23:15] ours and never think again I did this I stopped reading for a couple of hours we read a talk for

[00:23:18] a couple years not saying readings they answered everything and just meaning it wasn't like

[00:23:22] it was a hard to just give all that in order to maintain that so you have to like be you just get

[00:23:27] more and more on the intellectual which is for me the issue really now is how to bring them

[00:23:32] back into action rather than to just try and kill off which is related to this idea of killing the ego

[00:23:39] which I think is another wrong way of thinking about all this stuff although it's connected

[00:23:42] your everyday ego will be connected with your what we're calling thoughting or the those guys

[00:23:47] call the default mode network so it's all kind of intertwined but I mean to start untangling a

[00:23:54] listen to pick it apart even be interested in this and then to actually go ahead and do it you

[00:23:58] already have to have some space in your mind where you can see this is happening to yourself

[00:24:03] you know you can't persuade a normal person of this because there doesn't even a cartoon that

[00:24:07] words are tools the words things in their mind are just our what they are and a lot of your

[00:24:11] construction of what you feel is me myself is based on all this nobody know but again you just

[00:24:16] identify with it the meditation people are good at explaining that stuff I just don't think

[00:24:20] they're very good afterwards this just comes about to a guy just staring into the sky

[00:24:25] standing in the cave where there's once you're free of the thoughting you're actually have more space

[00:24:31] and energy while I found out anyway over a while over time do be able to think clearly and you get

[00:24:36] better intuitions because you're not crowded out with all this the the random words and feelings

[00:24:41] that are appealing by themselves as much so I don't know I haven't I've gone off in a dungeon yeah

[00:24:46] yeah no I think so what what you seem to me to be saying is that yeah you through through the

[00:24:53] action again I think we were talking about this process before that some practices are appropriate

[00:24:59] at certain times the energize pollution and noise that are going on in the in the head

[00:25:05] in the body or you know I've missed a process here talking about us like we're a robot or something

[00:25:10] but you know it's a metaphor that works so so I suppose a part of this the way I see it these days

[00:25:17] is the other dimension so we're talking about affirmations and reasoning things out before which

[00:25:23] undoubtedly do play a part there's nothing wrong with having an affirmation I guess you know rather

[00:25:28] than you know affirmation of self-loathing like many people do why not try to make it positive I mean

[00:25:34] if these things are just tools you know I can't see there's anything wrong with that personally I

[00:25:39] don't do it because you know I'm already awesome I don't need to do it but the thing is

[00:25:45] in an affirmation of course exactly see or is this more like a magical spell you

[00:25:53] hyper-sigial let's put your hyper-sigial language really never heard of that that's some that's

[00:25:58] deeply esoteric when you pick that up that is was that on a Twitter thread or something or I

[00:26:03] must have missed it that's that's pretty good hyper-sigial yeah I think it's from the

[00:26:10] grant modicent you know the guy who wrote the invisible comic no no because he that was yeah I

[00:26:15] think that I think he came up with I'm not sure but anyway it's the idea is you what you want to

[00:26:20] make happen and become true you put the put into the world in some way rather than it being like a secret

[00:26:25] thing you do on right right I haven't really tried it I know people who do it but it's it's it's

[00:26:31] not um actually quite straightforward it's actually not that esoteric if when you when it's actually

[00:26:36] spelled out and step by step what you actually do it's just the ocean sounds esoteric

[00:26:41] hyper hyper of course maybe I should call my course that or something hyper-sigial breeding

[00:26:46] when you know you know breeding breeding hyper-sigial breeding I don't know but hyperbreeding I mean

[00:26:54] there's sounds all right it wouldn't be any of that going on in my course don't want to put anyone

[00:26:59] off or anything so yeah I was thinking so what I noticed and what I've noticed in my myself a lot

[00:27:05] the other element to thoughting and we've spoken about it in a cognitive way so just spoken

[00:27:12] about in terms of words and recognizing what words are you know looking at cool zybsky using e prime

[00:27:19] to try and see through you know what's going on and the fact that words are tools of course the

[00:27:23] other element is that the body and the physiology a deeply impact the quality of thinking and

[00:27:31] thoughting I think that anyone who's worked on their their body or diet or anything like that when

[00:27:36] you're in a good you know I hate using this word metabolic state or a good physiological physiological

[00:27:42] physiological state that you notice a strange thing that happens and that is that the so-called

[00:27:48] personality and the self take on an entirely different character so one way I like to look at

[00:27:54] all this is that one way of changing things is pretty obvious and that's to improve the quality

[00:28:01] of the physiology in general so you can do that really by the manipulation of all the different

[00:28:07] systems that we're comprised of that do affect all sorts of different systems and they're all of

[00:28:14] course processual they all impact one another so what I mean by that is you have some like the

[00:28:20] autonomic central peripheral nervous systems the way they all interact with one another of course

[00:28:27] they're connected to the cardio vascular system which in turn is connected to the internal

[00:28:34] respiratory system which then has impacts on the hormonal system then the hormonal system has

[00:28:41] impacts on neurotransmitters and various other things which then goes to impact the immune system

[00:28:48] which regulates you know things like states of stress or whatever else and all these things that

[00:28:54] lead to I suppose a physiological homeostasis like a homeostatic response in which the physiology

[00:29:02] is interacting with an ecology and it should be interacting at a maximal

[00:29:07] energetic efficiency or processual efficiency and unfortunately I suppose in our world the physiological

[00:29:15] habits were taught in fact that we're not taught to think about our posture we're always you know

[00:29:20] focused on our phones or whatever else it is that all these systems this has a very direct and

[00:29:26] real impact on how all these processual systems are functioning so they tend to I wouldn't say

[00:29:33] malfunction but they tend to not function optimally and that actually has a very real impact on

[00:29:40] the quality first of all of the thoughting so when you do have thoughting if you have out of control

[00:29:46] thoughting it's very often a product of a fried nervous system a nervous system that isn't being

[00:29:51] regulated properly so while people may try and attack that from an cognitive point of view

[00:29:57] so they may go oh well I've just got to look in the mirror and say you know enrol in Alex's

[00:30:01] breeding course or whatever they think they got to do actually it could more be a case that

[00:30:07] there's some other sub linguistic intervention that is required to get that nervous system back on

[00:30:13] track well regulated whether that be dietary interventions lifestyle interventions all these

[00:30:19] different things so we can tend to get caught up in the thoughting and try to find ways to stop the

[00:30:23] thoughting with other thoughts which some of those interventions might be okay then so look at

[00:30:28] purely as that we set up processes that the way that these processes are interacting in an

[00:30:35] energetic sense have a very real impact on our cognitive and I suppose the feeling of what happens

[00:30:44] so what I'm kind of suggesting is that over time these homeostatic mechanisms can be changed

[00:30:51] they can be changed through bodywork through breathwork through posture work through these things

[00:30:56] that are very foundational and what you may notice is that when you really go deep with these

[00:31:02] different things so when you go deep within the conscious manipulation of these homeostatic

[00:31:08] mechanisms that as was spoken about they do impact all the metabolic

[00:31:13] symbolic suppose metabolic dynamics of the body and all the resources that the org is organism

[00:31:20] uses to regulate the vital variables in the environment these things are fundamentally non-word based

[00:31:29] their physical systems and when you work deeply with them when you start to get them all

[00:31:36] functioning properly that a lot of the problems that you think that you have with thoughting so

[00:31:41] the inability to get out of your head all these different things of people experience they tend

[00:31:45] to just go away they tend to dissipate and then it's from that point that you can start to maybe

[00:31:51] have more success with a more cognitive more complex ways of self change I think so that's another

[00:31:58] kind of angle that I just wanted to talk about because for sure I notice people and I noticed this

[00:32:03] even in myself like I could be having a really stressful day just thoughting my ass off getting

[00:32:08] resentful, ruminating like all the various things that we all do and then I'll sit down I'll do a

[00:32:13] session where I deliberately and consciously manipulate my cardiovascular system by manipulating the

[00:32:20] pace of my respiratory process deliberately try to relax and then use meditation for example to

[00:32:28] try to cognitively contextualize everything that's going on properly and within 20 minutes my frame

[00:32:34] of mind could be just completely different qualitatively completely different the rumination will be gone

[00:32:41] my mind will be clear and all of a sudden I'm in a completely different spot where I'm then able

[00:32:46] to then go and engage and whatever has caused me issues before I like this I like to pass out

[00:32:54] different elements of this because I feel like those things you could look at those things is in

[00:32:59] they're inducing good feelings or you know whatever else which sometimes happens not all the time

[00:33:05] but sometimes that happens and it would be very easy to become obsessed with just that but I like to

[00:33:10] view these things as just purely a tool it's just a tool that I'm using I know I'm not going to get

[00:33:15] obsessed with it but I just use it because in this situation right now this is what I need to

[00:33:20] happen because my my thawting is out of control and it's becoming debilitating I'm becoming highly

[00:33:26] reactive and I just need to find a way out of this and this is the tool that I'm going to use this

[00:33:31] recognizing that all these processual systems are operating underneath the bonnet and if I can hack

[00:33:38] into them in some way then I can change the actual fundamental nature of the feeling of what happens

[00:33:44] so I don't know where you're at. Yeah and the thing the thing you did is you did something so it's

[00:33:48] about doing something not just words words words so important so like to go from thoughting to thinking

[00:33:54] so what you like to take the example you said that of consciously manipulating your cardiovascular system

[00:33:59] and you know people get you can work with you don't nervous system and this kind of stuff it's

[00:34:04] going from just words in your head say thoughting or images in your head and then you're actually

[00:34:09] doing something so you're doing it to yourself to your body so a lot of these somatic techniques will

[00:34:13] work like that because you're now just your humans are made for action thinking is design came from

[00:34:18] helping with action tools for acting to do have more options to have more control over things to

[00:34:24] communicate with others as you're doing things in the group as we're thinking came from so humans

[00:34:28] are designed for action so when we get worried and anxious and all these things you get from

[00:34:33] that control thoughting from like you know fried night never system or wherever you describe it

[00:34:37] and we're far too much muscular tension and all these things you need to go from the words in your

[00:34:43] head to doing something rather than just uh continue with more words and what you did was you

[00:34:48] it requires words if you think about because what you had to do is you when you decided to manipulate

[00:34:54] or to do it when when anyone decides to do a technique you are think you're self-talk you're thinking

[00:35:00] there's words in your head you know you decide okay I need to stop doing this I need to do that

[00:35:04] technique I know the breathing technique okay so this so you're very quickly giving step one step to

[00:35:09] in your mind as you're planning things in your head some people is more aware they hear it

[00:35:12] more their own voice some people don't but they are you are communicating with yourself and then

[00:35:17] that's immediately aimed and directed at doing something indifferent with your body so you've

[00:35:23] converted words into reality this happens to your body it's not like a hunting animal out in the wild

[00:35:29] could be that you know I'm hungry I'm just gonna say think about hungry and have new words so

[00:35:33] I'm not hungry I'm not hungry you know maybe that works incrementing faster than wherever

[00:35:37] but you'll starve eventually so you're better to just think okay how what can I how can I use

[00:35:42] these words instead of going around in circles about being hungry and not being hungry how can I just

[00:35:47] speak to the people and say okay let's coordinate each other and you do this I'll do this let's

[00:35:51] make this and then we'll go and get us mammoth or whatever so that tight that's what you describe

[00:35:57] there you're doing going from being stressed to basically talking yourself into doing things

[00:36:04] that got rid of the thought so now you're just clear and now you're more able to do more talking

[00:36:08] to yourself about functional things to do things or be silent you have the choice so really this

[00:36:13] is how you go from thoughting to thinking you don't you don't throw away thinking you started

[00:36:20] you didn't throw away words and concepts you actually started thinking instead of throwing

[00:36:24] and anyone can do this so you start doing it in the beginning when you first try these things you

[00:36:29] you resist you don't want to a more thoughting comes up they're gonna work feels bad I don't know

[00:36:34] what I'm doing and then every time you think through something and you do something with it it creates

[00:36:39] new results you get a little bit more confidence of your thinking and then you'll think a little bit

[00:36:43] more the next time and then you just gradually pull yourself out of nothing but thoughting there's

[00:36:47] always going to be stuff just comes up against your will like not against your will but just happens

[00:36:52] to you all day this is part of me humans how verbatines are wired silence you're talking about

[00:36:56] tool silence is a useful tool but a lot of the traditions in that silence just becomes an end

[00:37:00] in itself you know you just sit in silence and you have the image of all and like it's a definite

[00:37:06] tool for you know expanding yourself transcending your account thing or awakenings or re-uncertain

[00:37:13] but it's not at me it's not an endpoint it's not goal it's just that it's another tool whether we

[00:37:18] why we need it as a tool I don't know but it's clear that people are it helps people stop the

[00:37:24] thoughting learning to be silent but if you only learn to be silent then you're not very good

[00:37:28] you're not going to be thinking to think in the real world hence the guy goes lives in the cave

[00:37:32] doesn't and people come and give him arms I'm so moral people bring me food to help me survive

[00:37:37] no it's just you don't have to think anymore until you have to try to go around the side of the road

[00:37:41] and it's unappance wasn't it the other thing that they do when they use the other two deep

[00:37:45] deep is the other guy in the world yeah I mean it's like I find myself always I keep banging on

[00:37:50] about the even the things that feel seems like we're not using words and we're escaping

[00:37:55] into like actually you're using it just in a different way and making it into action it's all

[00:38:00] everything you describe there is about doing something with though doing something instead of

[00:38:05] just think instead of just having words going down in your head that's all boil down to

[00:38:10] and doing something could just be changing you changing something in the world that's a human's

[00:38:14] or wired reward for action announced as persons just surrounded circles and not doing anything

[00:38:18] some people jump into action without even thinking and they flick things up even more but it's

[00:38:22] probably better than sitting in tents and not doing anything because yeah as long as not too stupid

[00:38:28] what you do at least are changing something and then you can change it again you know

[00:38:32] yeah with the reason that just seems to be what it is but a lot of the if you're some types of people

[00:38:37] will it just gets stuck using the thoughting to try and change the thoughting rather than dealing

[00:38:42] with the root cause of that yeah yeah well actually I wrote an article on this french scientist called

[00:38:47] Henry Labyrinth I'm probably not absolutely butchering his last name no doubt it's Australian

[00:38:53] French Labyrinth Henry Labyrinth mate probably not what his name really is it's probably like

[00:38:58] Labyrinth La Brerie or something I'm not sure how you say it but he actually does have

[00:39:01] French hugs and nozaeotian Australian yeah of course Australian French so yeah he did experiments

[00:39:07] with rats and it actually fairly conclusively showed that any kind of action at all beats

[00:39:16] passively just taking it even if the situation is hopeless or seems hopeless and the effectiveness

[00:39:23] of the action is not all that important at least in terms of stress response,

[00:39:30] hormones various other markers like which is very interesting so that's on my sub stack if people

[00:39:36] yeah that makes total sense yeah that's the same thing I mean that's why we're wired for action

[00:39:40] it's not because everybody wasn't died that's probably why he even just he wasn't wired for action

[00:39:45] died oh that looks like it could be stripes of a tiger between the trees let me see the typical

[00:39:51] length of one stripe compared to the other type but I'll just work this out town a second

[00:39:55] I'll just draw on the ground with a stick now and do some symbols and figure out the probability

[00:40:01] of whether the tightness of this phenomenon right on it quick to every thread on seven learnings

[00:40:07] from identifying a tiger's stripe so obviously it's where there's benefits from these things

[00:40:14] being wired into and just happening to us and all that obviously so it's not like you can make

[00:40:18] everything conscious and everything intentional and yours is this perfect separate it's

[00:40:23] spiritual being separate from from the world this is that's stupid no it's kind of like a strong

[00:40:29] mon argument people have again people make when you start saying we can actually become a little

[00:40:32] bit more conscious about stuff yes much conscious control over the things that are happening in your

[00:40:37] mind in the beginning but you can't actually get a little bit better it's never going to be perfect

[00:40:41] the who cares what's the point what's what's about worrying about that does mar so it's just I think

[00:40:47] the thing that makes you know makes the difference between so you really know what you've been thinking

[00:40:52] rather than throwing is if done something in the world something has changed and there's new results

[00:40:57] does mar of your good or bad it just means you've done something you like weren't happy with the

[00:41:01] way things were so you looked at the situation you had some ideas and then you opted on them and then

[00:41:07] you opted again and had some ideas on the new situation you created now you know you're in thinking

[00:41:13] land because it was intentional it's not just well I'll just see what happens next which is it

[00:41:18] can be a tool too that mean that can be that's okay too and the body so like the like my work for

[00:41:23] the posture work is actually I don't really scream at like this to people but because it sounds

[00:41:27] confusing and not what they're looking for in the beginning but really it's how to translate words

[00:41:32] into actions how to decide what you want to do but like I'm giving a one-to-one on a zoom call

[00:41:39] and I'm giving them instructions a bit different movements in the beginning people can't follow

[00:41:42] basic instructions because we're just not used to transferring words immediately into actions

[00:41:46] we're just used them going around in your head based on feelings like can you pick up this stick

[00:41:50] and move this stick in this way and do this to do with that hand this other hand then they'll

[00:41:53] pick up with the wrong hand they'll hold the wrong part they're like again a fluster and they

[00:41:57] can't remember the instructions are just giving them even though it's like two or three simple this

[00:42:00] most people are like this is normal so you just have to learn how to follow instructions first

[00:42:05] from the teacher about movements me and then when they start giving themselves instructions you know

[00:42:10] there's just this inner dialogue that they're giving themselves very start following their own

[00:42:14] movements so they start obeying their own commands but in the beginning people can't obey commands

[00:42:19] this is an itchy thing about commanding and obeying you know the he is few different things

[00:42:23] he says about command like you want to come up like commanding and obeying at the same time you

[00:42:28] know the normal person likes to do both but this is part of it it's like telling yourself what to do

[00:42:33] and then doing it but doing it means actions and then actions means analyzing the result of what

[00:42:38] did it work so you're already taking the thought and you're I'm not sure is it transforming

[00:42:44] the thought into thinking or are you just setting up a part of the system in your mind were

[00:42:49] alongside the the thoughtings happening anyway and then you're you're doing some active thinking

[00:42:54] and then because you've got conscious intention and energy behind the active thinking you just start

[00:42:59] going along with that instead of the thoughting and the thoughting just wears away a little bit

[00:43:03] it's like if you get you're really hyper tense you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:43:07] your head all tense you get a massage you're saying you feel relaxed your body's relaxed and

[00:43:11] you've noticed all the the child in your head's gone away because it was being fueled by

[00:43:15] detention or whatever I think there's a point yeah I'm just going to sound that point very quickly

[00:43:20] I think that the organism actually has a point of you know like a seesaw like a maximal resonance

[00:43:27] or a swing it's like you know if you put someone up like a kid on a swing and you're just

[00:43:32] pushing them on the swing and they come up and you find that point where you're putting the minimal

[00:43:36] effort in and you're getting the maximum out of the swing I honestly feel like the human being

[00:43:41] has a point like that so in all these systems are functioning fairly well the thoughting just kind

[00:43:46] of is better regulated it's it's when you're operating in a non-hateless engineering you know a

[00:43:53] non-efficient manner I suppose that things start to weigh on each other and you're putting more

[00:43:59] effort in to get the kid up every time kind of thing does that make sense as a metaphor yeah

[00:44:04] I think so yeah I think um Gurgief had a the way he called it was he called this thoughting I

[00:44:09] think it's the same thing and he called it the formatory apparatus so you just constantly come

[00:44:15] up with these forms the system is just happening by itself and your the person is asleep they're not

[00:44:20] a week at all when they do they just happens to them and that's what's like it's just like your

[00:44:24] history you're partly your genetics but partly your early history you're upbringing and all the

[00:44:30] culture and all that it's just whatever's happening in the real world is just being

[00:44:35] filtered through all this and you're it's just your brain is just all mackley coming up with stuff

[00:44:41] it's coming up with associations with everything that happens and feelings based on things you know

[00:44:45] it's a different experience of doing it but you're you're at you're doing the the feel it's

[00:44:50] well as what is to use an old fashioned word you're you're you're willing things and making things

[00:44:55] happen you're using words and concepts to will it to make it it's a feeling of willing things

[00:45:00] into the world that is not the same as just being there and things happening to you and it's only

[00:45:06] when you try to do it and you have to struggle against the way things currently are you have to force

[00:45:09] yourself to do that you're like oh I'm more awake in a live now briefly and then you go back

[00:45:13] into the default no network or whatever and you're just you know this is why people are suddenly

[00:45:18] become having it like an epiphany bit life when they were almost in the car crash or when

[00:45:23] they're playing or you know whatever those moments in a mix closed out and it's because you're

[00:45:27] you're taking out of it briefly and you're you're taking you're taking out of that default one

[00:45:31] network or the thought in your web it is briefly and then you now you've seen it you know there's

[00:45:36] something else and then of course you just go back into the trance again after but when you

[00:45:40] get and psychedelics can be useful for people to see outside of it they become idiots when

[00:45:45] it's only do but it's useful to get outside of that for some people but meditation is you know an

[00:45:51] older no older but like a more solid way of doing it for people because you're more in charge of

[00:45:55] it then rather than have to rely on taking things people will debate that forever but the it's just

[00:46:00] coming back to the same thing are you doing something and the best the first place to do things

[00:46:05] is your body just because that's your whether it's changing your posture whether it's talking

[00:46:09] into your nervous system to calm yourself down you know the words go a long way if you're using them

[00:46:14] to do things but if they're just in your head going around and feeding the feelings and then the

[00:46:19] feeling sends out more words and then the words bring in more feelings and do do it you know doing

[00:46:23] any and this is why marketing works because they take the aim of those people and they set up in

[00:46:28] such a way that it brings them out of their loop quickly enough to do something buy the product

[00:46:33] and then they go back into the loop and then they go around and until they feel it again they have

[00:46:36] to go out again and buy a new thing very clever mmm devilish yeah I his his another way I think I'm

[00:46:42] you know picking up what you're putting down here so of course I was reading I did a review on that

[00:46:47] book distracted mind and in that book he talks a lot about the poor communication between the

[00:46:52] higher executive functions of the brain so the planning and you know doing a mathematical equation

[00:46:59] or planning a complex action that we probably would call thinking in this conversation I think

[00:47:05] that would qualify is thinking that higher order kind of planning part of the brain yeah yeah

[00:47:11] and a good way to frame it I think at all I think is to think of it like the if you were to do a

[00:47:17] somatic practice or meditation or something like this to do it properly it really you are in a way

[00:47:25] framing it from an executive function point of view so you're doing it you're using it as a tool

[00:47:31] so in a sense I guess you could say it qualifies kind of as a thought because it's part of a complex

[00:47:37] strategy to affect a change in the real world which is really what the executive functions kind of

[00:47:44] all about and on the other hand you have this kind of tendency in people who do somatic stuff or

[00:47:49] meditation or whatever it is all those kinds of things and they use it as a kind of reactivity

[00:47:56] to what's going on so like I can't stand the feeling in my body and I'm just going to react and

[00:48:01] do meditation as I can't stand it and they tend to dwell there because I don't have a higher framework

[00:48:07] of how all this stuff is fitting together and being used as a tool and they tend to get obsessed

[00:48:13] with one thing so you get the one thingness from and they just lose the forest for the trees

[00:48:19] and in some sense sorry the trees for the forest and in some sense that's where you get people

[00:48:25] like Dharma Bums and various other kinds of people who just get kind of just tied up in this

[00:48:30] reactive squishiness because I just can't stand the higher order of things. It's kind of what

[00:48:37] I feel like a lot of people don't practice meditation properly for this reason because say for

[00:48:43] example in Zazen it is kind of like a higher function tool that when done properly

[00:48:50] when because what you're doing is constantly kind of imposing like a watermark on reality as

[00:48:57] it is and it's this kind of inherent realization in the moment where you're like uh and you start

[00:49:04] to untie yourself from from those bad habits. I was thinking like I was kind of making a few notes

[00:49:11] for this episode and like when I was a junior in the shipping business we used to like back in the day

[00:49:19] you know we had telexes and like all this old technology and like you know radios and stuff

[00:49:26] that you'd radio the ships all these different things and we just got Zurox in this particular office

[00:49:32] and when we go on the ship we go and get the documents done with a master so he would you know

[00:49:38] you do a bill of lading for example for the cargo that was on board the ship in a manifest and various

[00:49:44] various other cargo commercial cargo documents. And this just came up into my mind I guess I was

[00:49:49] thoughting this experience out because when you're in meditation or Zazen it's kind of the same thing

[00:49:54] what you're kind of doing is you're putting like this watermark or overlay over the top of things

[00:50:01] constantly uh we're thawting and what it does is it's it kind of prevents us from accessing some

[00:50:09] semblance of reality as it is. And I suppose it's a little bit different because the watermark that

[00:50:16] we use or that we're imposing on reality with thawting is not preventing fraud it's actually kind

[00:50:23] of causing it and meditation is useful for that because because you start to recognize many of the

[00:50:29] watermarks that you're imposing over reality with with thawting with the thawting that you've been

[00:50:35] acculturated and brought up to kind of do. And you you did mention something like that before I forget

[00:50:41] what it exactly was but for sure there is this filter of subconscious stuff that it's kind of like

[00:50:48] I guess someone like Hyatt would would prefer to refer to it as brain pollution or you know

[00:50:53] something like that. And those those things are a very often out of mind and when I worked with one

[00:51:00] of Hyatt's students what he referred to it as metaphysical beliefs like personal metaphysical beliefs

[00:51:06] and part of the process I went through with him was to go through these metaphysical beliefs

[00:51:12] and what you do is you start with this giant autobiography not giant you know fairly big where you

[00:51:20] recount your life from a narrative point of view. And for him I guess being trained in the way

[00:51:27] of the doctor Hyatt and and of course bringing his own stuff to the table is that he pulled metaphysical

[00:51:34] beliefs that were kind of like running underneath the surface out of that narrative and you go through

[00:51:40] this kind of dialectic process ripping apart many of these beliefs that are irrational silly and

[00:51:47] self-defeating for the most part. And it was very interesting process because we definitely have

[00:51:53] stuff running under the bonnet that we're not aware of that we came to conclusions when we couldn't

[00:51:59] reason out. And these beliefs in a very real way they shape the faunting and they kind of

[00:52:06] determine the character of the watermark that we put over reality itself. So it's a very interesting

[00:52:11] exercise if anyone ever gets a chance to do it is to really go deep into your character with someone

[00:52:17] who knows how to do it and to and to rip those beliefs apart. So we have all sorts of beliefs

[00:52:23] the tie-in with thoughting and I think it is actually in that black book that Dr. Hyatt goes through

[00:52:28] a lot of these different things that they were given it could be a belief about society it could be

[00:52:33] a manner of thinking so he mentions things like either oars which we just use. We don't even think

[00:52:39] about using either oars but either oars really you know they shade a very large part of our conscious

[00:52:46] experience. So that's maybe an example of a cultural thinking habit that we all have that we just

[00:52:53] it's running under the surface right because we don't know what it is for the most part we don't

[00:52:56] recognize where either oars came from we don't really have any control over them as a result.

[00:53:02] So exercises like zazen and this kind of deep I suppose you know personality analysis it brings up

[00:53:10] all these assumptions and ways of thinking that are sort of bubbling underneath the surface

[00:53:16] and are really giving a very individual and the way that we interact with the world

[00:53:22] and our thoughtings. And I just wanted to run something by you so if you can talk about how

[00:53:27] you know higher order of thinking involves sitting down you know planning something out

[00:53:32] than doing all these different things but that thinking is also shaded by thoughting. So there is

[00:53:39] stuff that's subconscious thoughting that is bubbling underneath the surface it is determining

[00:53:45] what the quality of that thinking so what I mean is I suppose we all went through COVID recently

[00:53:51] and you saw otherwise fairly intelligent people who are fairly well educated

[00:53:56] absolutely chimp out and make some of the worst rational decisions I've ever seen in my life

[00:54:02] like it was actually quite unbelievable. And that really in a way you could say well that person is

[00:54:07] good at thinking because they sat down at university maybe they got a highly technical degree so

[00:54:12] it's not like they're stupid like they're capable of thinking but underneath the surface there are

[00:54:16] these untested metaphysical beliefs which I guess you could call a thoughting that are diminishing

[00:54:24] the impact of their thinking. Even you see what I mean so I'm kind of getting at like how far do

[00:54:30] you need to make sure that or to ensure that your thinking really is thinking and one of the ways

[00:54:35] you can effectively do it is with Zazen so you can or meditation and you can sit there and if

[00:54:41] you're doing it properly you can notice the total context of all the things that are going

[00:54:46] and going on within consciousness and you would like to think that over time this leads to a bit

[00:54:52] of wisdom or something where you're able to notice the origins of your thinking and your thoughtings

[00:54:58] but then I look at someone like Sam Harris and I'm like well that clearly that's not the

[00:55:01] fucking case because he can meditate really well that he's out of his fucking mind so it brought

[00:55:07] up a problem for me. So I'm like well how do you know that your thinking is really thinking

[00:55:11] and not just another species of thoughting because you've never investigated the metaphysical beliefs

[00:55:18] that lie underneath the thinking that you're doing. I don't know if you can ever truly escape it

[00:55:23] to me. I just have to sort of just got to get forget about it. It could just simply be the recognition

[00:55:29] all the time that you just have limitations to your thinking where some people don't have that

[00:55:35] they think that their thinking is absolute thinking. So yeah the basic skepticism you have about

[00:55:42] whether your thinking is right or enough that most people don't have no doesn't even kick

[00:55:47] curtain that the media thing isn't the thing. I mean I don't know if you can really escape it

[00:55:51] even how it said somewhere everybody gets caught in a dogma eventually. I like the way how much

[00:55:57] you try and do yourself and all these things eventually there's something will be your dogma

[00:56:01] you know it's the one thing again you know everyone has their thing they think explains more things

[00:56:05] and their thing explains so yeah and some of that's metaphysical beliefs like if they about

[00:56:10] themselves in the world I'm bad they're good I'm good they're but yeah however and then everything's

[00:56:15] built on top of that so I mean their whole their whole brain is wired like that. So I mean technically

[00:56:20] you could think your way out of that I think but I mean there's certain levels of wiring and people's

[00:56:25] brains have had like strong events happen and they're so young you just can't undo it for practical

[00:56:29] reasons it's just too too hard you know maybe it's plausible in theory in the future but

[00:56:35] some things you just can't escape and then they're like some harris and all those kind of people

[00:56:39] the last few years if you stimulate someone's a big deal and after it will override any kind of

[00:56:44] rational thinking skills they have to build up to like you know it doesn't matter they're like

[00:56:49] especially like fake intellectuals and stuff you get now there it's all in very few ditches all

[00:56:54] their thinking is round the circles and a few ditches and it's very pending by the consensus

[00:56:59] reality basically what everyone else agrees on what's seen as good and bad even if they project

[00:57:04] the foundations of morality they still have their own morality and everything has to be

[00:57:08] penned inside that and then they do all the thinking in this nice little safe pen like a child

[00:57:12] in his toy room you know on his child proof there's nothing dangerous around them let me keep it

[00:57:17] nice and safe then something happens it scares the shit out of them for whatever reason

[00:57:21] lower parts of the brain are stimulated and they just overreels the other things I mean that's a

[00:57:26] useful mechanism that your parts of you over you know if you're thinking about a maths exam and

[00:57:31] you step out on the road and a car is about to hit no key down and you your body jumps back without

[00:57:37] you having to think about it in advance that's good thing but the bad side of it is that people just

[00:57:42] you can be made to just need to make someone scared and then they'll stop thinking straight and

[00:57:46] I know what you mean some of these like blatantly irrational things people were believing and

[00:57:50] believing two things at once it's just not possible to do imagine they could do that before I

[00:57:55] comprehend I had a lot of trouble yeah it's like what is going on here you know I just wouldn't get

[00:58:00] it really revealed a lot of people have some kind of medical ignition and most people don't

[00:58:04] so you know the NPC meme is pretty good really the NPC thing because it is like that but you know

[00:58:09] it's like they're you know it's a fat fan name or whatever bits I mean most of it most I mean

[00:58:14] even people who aren't 100% NPC are mostly including me and this are NPC-ing most of the time you

[00:58:21] know you're never you can't escape that and then it ties into this sort of what you were saying

[00:58:26] the conscious and subconscious they're both intertwined all the time you're doing something

[00:58:30] consciously everything's subconscious something's intentional something's

[00:58:35] put into you by other people or they were just doing them because people around you are doing them

[00:58:40] or it's just possibly habit but similar to what you're saying about how do you know when you

[00:58:45] even if you're doing a biography of yourself and you're trying to do it in the third person and

[00:58:49] like you know independent biography and impartial this isn't with yourself to the extent that you

[00:58:54] can you're still like how much of it is your metaphysical unexplored metaphysical beliefs

[00:59:00] underneath they're making you say these things or think these things it's it's exactly the same

[00:59:05] in movements actually because FM Alexander's early work was about his idea was people have a conception

[00:59:10] of so they're doing they're moving in weird ways so they have bad posture or movement problems

[00:59:14] or stiffness and melis-deemingly physical issues and then his like main discovery was well

[00:59:19] I said he's just going oh they've got stiff shoulder just flexing the shoulder around and trying

[00:59:23] to make it loose which you know like what does what people do and how you know they're firmly

[00:59:28] manipulated or they do some softer one where you're releasing the tension of whether it's like there's

[00:59:32] a problem here go in there and change that what he realized was it's not a physical problem like

[00:59:37] that these things the person has a conception an idea a mental construct about how the mechanisms

[00:59:42] work is wrong this just falls to the facts of the movements concepts about us it's not the ideal

[00:59:48] word to use here because it's kind of a few thoughts that they thought over time but it's mostly just

[00:59:52] feelings of what feels right mixed in with it's almost like a feeling based conception if you can call

[00:59:57] like a physiological reactivity like a patent reactivity or something yeah and it's it's a belief behind

[01:00:04] it though that's the way it should in order to move my shoulder it should feel this way as I'm doing

[01:00:09] it and if it doesn't feel that way and that's not the way it is so it just becomes you think

[01:00:13] that's the way it works and because it's so intimate feelings of your limbs and your movements

[01:00:18] it just seems true because it's straight in your face immediate so his idea was you have

[01:00:21] the change of conception you can do all the physical things you want but the person doesn't understand

[01:00:26] these objects rotate in this way or you're or to look at the structure in a different way and say

[01:00:32] like it would be a straight line here but you're bending it here and making it shorter you know

[01:00:36] like these kind of understanding the mechanisms of what they're doing understanding the effects

[01:00:40] on the mechanisms and it's only once you change the conception that can start changing your movements

[01:00:43] so like a five people with problems like an example there's like a shoulder movement experiments

[01:00:49] I give people and it's they can move the shoulder in a certain way and it's to do with the position

[01:00:53] of the elbow and the wrist and things we're doing so there's objective things on camera that we're

[01:00:57] testing and then once they understand the concepts some of the person will be struggling to get it

[01:01:01] so I'll explain the model in different ways they'll have them physically do a model with their hands

[01:01:06] and objects and stuff to understand the concept change the concept and then I'll say okay now try

[01:01:11] the movements again and often they'll suddenly do a much more free or a much different movement than

[01:01:15] they could do before but there was no intermediate steps there was no like bit by bit by bit they didn't

[01:01:20] get closer and closer they just change the idea of what was possible and then suddenly we did a

[01:01:24] different thing that makes sense yeah there was a quality you just changed the concepts you

[01:01:28] could think of that in terms of the movement is like a metaphysical belief you have about the

[01:01:31] mechanisms underneath it's completely unexplored and examined until you know it's I pointed out to

[01:01:38] them and get them to do some movements but pointing out to them won't do anything you still need

[01:01:41] to do something with it after obviously but just doing something won't do either you need to cut

[01:01:46] the concept too sometimes doing new movements will bring up will create the new concept of how

[01:01:51] the mechanism works and like there's an interplay between them it's not far down theory to practice

[01:01:56] obviously the theories coming out of the practice and things are changing and I'm changing my ideas

[01:02:00] about it as well over time things like so that's like you're just having to get new mental tools

[01:02:05] for what we thought were just physical problems so you use the new mental tool to apply to problem

[01:02:09] and so you know like an empty will start it's a new mental tool both and and then those people

[01:02:13] take it too far and they think everything's both and then there's no clear cap things and they

[01:02:17] become all fuzzy wazzy wishy wazzy and annoying in a different way anyway that's not the point

[01:02:22] so all these things I think is just uh thinking you don't thinking isn't indirectly it's

[01:02:26] dance to tools mental tools they're gonna get like maths you don't one by one do all the math do all

[01:02:33] the maths you usually there's a trick you learn the trick for long division over your right

[01:02:38] out there's then you learn a trick for doing it in your head without writing down any there's all

[01:02:42] these little tricks and rules that somebody teaches you and geniuses really no find them themselves

[01:02:46] or whatever and then that's what you used to think so thinking this obviously is goes back to

[01:02:51] Francis Bacon actually he says that the thinking and I'll have to look at the right of this is

[01:02:56] the root of modern science is that you intellect users tools as well in the same way as the human

[01:03:01] harm uses tools to get things done tools as intermediaries you don't just directly do everything with

[01:03:05] your bare hands the mind uses metal tools to get things done to and so science is the

[01:03:10] and all tools to do things with just this thing about you know yeah so so it sounds as if when

[01:03:17] you're doing exercise with someone and they have a pattern pattern that feels familiar and that's

[01:03:24] the homeostatic response to the environment is just that pattern that feels legitimate and then

[01:03:32] you're trying to introduce a conscious total framing of the actual real-time movement

[01:03:40] so it's not just relaxing and trying to notice sensations it's a higher order of function where

[01:03:46] you're inducing a real movement in real time you're coupling cognition with that so you're

[01:03:53] coupling I guess awareness through video or through observing what's going on and in some sense then

[01:04:01] what that's creating is a conceptual layer that creates a higher order of conscious orientation

[01:04:10] of the body and space and this is kind of like where you're saying that all posture has to be

[01:04:17] conscious it's a conscious or in your model of posture that it's always going to be conscious

[01:04:23] because it quite literally is you're like you're making what is unconscious conscious as it means

[01:04:30] to change the governing concept of the posture and all the interactions that have to do with

[01:04:36] with that model of posture so it makes sense I think I'm picking out what you're putting down there

[01:04:41] it's interesting a lot of somatic work just focuses on proprioception so you lie down and then

[01:04:48] you just notice what's going on in the body with sensations but that's fundamentally not consciously

[01:04:54] directed action that is changing the layers the physiological layers of reactivity or the give rise

[01:05:03] to character and how the organism acts in space so it's very interesting it's an interesting difference

[01:05:11] and it is a higher order of executive function I think without a doubt that definitely qualifies

[01:05:18] and the mind is involved in that but you can't it's not really a thought is it it's more a sense

[01:05:23] think a sense thought or how would you put it or even know maybe there is a word for it I'm not sure

[01:05:29] you know which is different fundamentally different to proprioception somatic practices where people

[01:05:35] just focus on sensations and what things feel like and which is in a sense really just noticing

[01:05:42] reactivity and it's not fundamentally changing anything it's just a process of sitting there looking

[01:05:49] at feelings looking at sensations where is your work seems to be from what I've done to be the

[01:05:55] opposite it's about kind of taking that higher order cognition and thinking and then truly

[01:06:01] imposing a new concept and you know I was thinking is there a word for that that new

[01:06:08] understanding of that process of posture of the body in space the cognitive awareness from videotape

[01:06:16] and various other things is there a word for that because the concept in a way is not

[01:06:20] particularly a good word it's not really it and you were saying forwards but it could be like a

[01:06:26] conscious dash process or a process consciousness I mean how would you describe it is there a word

[01:06:32] for that I don't think there is I've never heard of one but it could be wrong sure because it's

[01:06:37] it's a mixture of tend to just throw the word psychophysical things through cover all these things

[01:06:42] but yeah it's like that you can't separate the more like a sort of a don't know the word yet

[01:06:48] but it's like a sort of negative definition would be you it's impossible to separate the intellectual

[01:06:55] the conceptual side of it the mind side of it from the physical the body side of it that they're

[01:07:00] intertwined even more than not intertwined even still sounds like there's two things mixed together

[01:07:05] but it's even more interconnected than that it's like they're like different levels of the same

[01:07:10] thing so yeah I mean you're changing like a one level there's a concept this change but you can

[01:07:14] think of that almost like a rule or a structure that's uh but at the same time there's also one

[01:07:20] particular a bit of change in a particular place with particular things you know there's like a

[01:07:25] kind of universal structure abstract concept but at the same time it's one particular example

[01:07:30] is your arm your shoulder, your body, your breathing whatever it is not someone else's and

[01:07:35] depending on the things some things unlike for more at the concept level without very much physical

[01:07:41] math for example but if you look at the maths you know like it's very comes from embodied you know

[01:07:47] that it's embodied metaphors without mathematical stuff is embodied metaphors you know like

[01:07:51] the arithmetic counting app comes from the little child piling up bricks there's more now take away

[01:07:55] bricks there's less you know I mean it's like uh well these they're not completely separate from

[01:08:00] the physical world as they seem something like pure maths and a craft craft fly for a reason right

[01:08:06] like yeah it's um intimately connected with it exactly the world yeah and then there's things that

[01:08:11] seem very very just physical but actually there's quite a lot of the concept into them so like

[01:08:16] posture is the example I always use you know the field is just a physical thing so you just need to

[01:08:20] maybe do a certain few physical movements then my weights or whatever and change the physical

[01:08:25] cap and then it'll just do it by yourself you know it's like sorry actually it's your conceptions

[01:08:29] about the movements and you're it's an even higher level meta conception above that which is how

[01:08:34] do I respond to feelings of movement do I just go with the feeling think that or do I say

[01:08:41] okay there's a feeling that do sound well check in other ways you know like that's a higher level

[01:08:45] and whether you the principle you use to go into action do you just immediately go straight for

[01:08:50] the goal or do you reason out you do you indirectly reason out the best method to the goal and then

[01:08:56] start implementing the plan towards the goal or do you just jump at something the light is better

[01:09:00] to jump at you know any evolution definitely other things in a more complex society with

[01:09:06] technology it's better to reason things out and directly and then resist the temptation to jump

[01:09:11] straight at the goal resist the temptation to get the thing so you know like in posture that they

[01:09:16] get the thing is stand up straight with shoulders back while that's what I want I'll just quickly do

[01:09:19] it turns out now concept is wrong never mind the method doesn't work but the concept itself

[01:09:24] is wrong because when you're pulling shoulders back like that it prevents you using stretching

[01:09:28] fascia on the back and preventing you using bio and conical springs that everybody has that you have

[01:09:33] the user body in a certain way from having this is all a mix between concepts and physical

[01:09:37] they're like there really is fascia structures elastic connective stress tissue you know if it's

[01:09:43] pulled it will stretch and resist and pull back you know exactly like a elastic band who pull

[01:09:48] elastic band pull your hands apart the elastic band will resist so you've got elastic tension

[01:09:52] there your hands are no longer moving but your the elastic band is tense in the middle of an equal

[01:09:56] one hand and it'll think that is like a model concept for a general rule but in the book you're

[01:10:02] getting with a particular concrete circumstances of your back and this elastic tissue that

[01:10:07] functions in the same way in your back you can see that even to explain that I've had to go from

[01:10:12] physical concept about the physical it's like you can't separate them and in terms of the

[01:10:17] the way I teach for people to use the fascia is it's impossible to do just by physical things

[01:10:22] you can't have therapists come in and move you into position it would just doesn't last

[01:10:25] for very long because art of the fascia system is your conscious intentions what you're in each

[01:10:31] moment choosing to do or not to do and how you're coordinating multiple movements it's you have to

[01:10:36] do that yeah and again that's it's that that is a form of reactivity it's the same kind of thing is

[01:10:43] or species is where thoughting comes from right getting a therapist to do it because you're still

[01:10:48] being passive and reactive you're just you're not exercising a higher executive control over the

[01:10:55] process yeah just giving away responsibility somebody fix me fix me please so in this uh so to

[01:11:01] bring it full circle I think with your work so with the people that have gone through it and I

[01:11:06] must admit I did do it for a while then life just got in the way and I haven't proceeded too far

[01:11:12] with it yet but what do you notice happens to thoughting as people go through the process like if

[01:11:19] people described like outcomes they think less they're less reactive I mean what what are some

[01:11:26] of the practical outcomes so people can get an understanding of how this kind of physiological work

[01:11:32] would impact well here's one that new people just said to me yesterday the day before he said

[01:11:38] there's only had one late at that point he'd only had one last day time some movements and explain

[01:11:43] what was going on what he was currently doing you know like so you could think about it in the

[01:11:48] and then we did some new movements using the new concepts using the new uh understandings and

[01:11:53] uh he told me he was sleeping better he's already sleeping better so that I so if someone says

[01:12:00] or bear because people often ask me what's the best sleeping position for poster it isn't the

[01:12:05] complex question hmm so what is i can't be we're going into now because it's the complex question

[01:12:10] in different ways so when people hear that they think oh well it's physical okay the poster's

[01:12:14] bear so you're not soaring in the day so you'll sleep better and then take your back as an

[01:12:18] iron so it was uh or whatever so that's an element of truth to that in this case I think it's more

[01:12:22] likely to be because there's new conceptual understanding of oh now I understand what's been going wrong

[01:12:27] and not to with I will have a method for fixing it so there's a relief from how I have

[01:12:33] your thinking can go oh the place for me now I know what I can do I can do something now because

[01:12:38] I have new ideas and concepts to work has new tools to work with now tell them really relief from

[01:12:44] and one of the things we're working with is you know you're getting instructing yourself to do movements

[01:12:48] so when you're going to sleep you know really you're not just at the mercy of what your body's telling

[01:12:53] you comfort you can actually order some movements around it's really subtle so it's more that's

[01:12:58] just an example of how you can't separate the conceptual intellectual from the physical if you're

[01:13:03] doing it in in the way that I call psychophysical but if you're doing both at the same time

[01:13:08] it would relate it to that as a guy told me a while ago he said he cured his insomnia from doing this

[01:13:12] because I was giving him instructions of movements so the instructions where I will do you know

[01:13:17] based on his situation it was this movement to do with the leg and the torso and relation to

[01:13:20] the leg and movements of the pelvis and the upper torso but I was going to do these movements

[01:13:24] again I'm quite basic it was like three or four movements at the same time actually know that

[01:13:27] basic for lots of people actually but I was doing like three having to do three or four movements

[01:13:32] at a time but he wasn't just doing them based on feeling I was giving him explicit instructions

[01:13:37] I will pull part A away from part B at the same time as a cool part B away from part

[01:13:42] head part C away from part D something like this okay I don't remember the exact movements for him

[01:13:46] I was naming the real part in the lesson I'm naming the body parts you know I have technical

[01:13:50] definitions of parts I'm not saying part X anyway so the point was he had never done this before

[01:13:55] he'd never done movements where you're actually explicitly instructing the movements to

[01:13:58] you're clarifying what is you actually want to do and how the parts relate to one another so then when

[01:14:04] normally what happens is he goes into the what we're saying now is we'd be the default

[01:14:08] moon network or do thought line down can't sleep just go round around circles I think this guy

[01:14:14] he was like a guy who's been like a you know like a pretty technical job I think he was a trader

[01:14:20] and a conist or something like this and so those type of guys are thinking about those things

[01:14:24] are in a bed so I sleep you know there's this kind of circle still they're like just thinking

[01:14:29] about they just carry on when you lie in bed obviously and so you may be thinking but then that

[01:14:33] becomes thoughting when you try to sleep you know I mean so there's a some clear like it's not

[01:14:39] clear what I think it was thought so anyway so he said that he just told himself to you know lie down

[01:14:44] to do and go sleep so he just he realized that you your words are tools to command yourself and you

[01:14:49] obey yourself too so that word for him so you never that's you never think of that as a solution to

[01:14:55] and so now you know it's completely a curvature I'm using these examples because I'm trying to

[01:15:00] demonstrate the interlinking between the two sides of it between the words and 100 movements

[01:15:06] on the other specifically it was after proceeding through the work for some time more energy

[01:15:13] there's a good one you have more energy you're more in springiness do you get a qualitative reduction

[01:15:19] predominantly existing in the frame of thoughting like you know oh yes that's

[01:15:25] I forgot we're actually forgot what we were talking about first thought yes in the beginning yeah

[01:15:29] I remember I'd also done other work with kind of some up so that quieted down a lot of the

[01:15:34] dialogue and stuff already so I already knew how to do that a little bit well quite a lot actually

[01:15:38] but this what tends to happen is you become better at thinking what I mean is if you have problems

[01:15:45] you're just less you get less distracted without trying to be less distracted just find yourself

[01:15:51] focusing on the thing because you're solving a problem and you're thinking it through and there's

[01:15:54] less noise much more signal less noise in your inner dialogue I can sit now and they're like I

[01:16:00] not think anything really just it can be silent but then I can go straight into intellectual

[01:16:05] problem solving after you know it's not like I never used to be able to do that before I did it

[01:16:10] the way I'm doing now is to be zoned out spaced out and could easily be in the list out of

[01:16:16] violent mediterate kind of thing but then with this I can solve problems I when someone's talk

[01:16:22] under the main big things I noticed this was someone was talking to me there was a stranger came

[01:16:26] to the door with a delivery or it was a delivery for someone else some trauma and they were looking

[01:16:31] for the person and while they were talking to me I was completely focused on what they were saying

[01:16:36] I was like I solved the problem in the head which I figured out who it was and it wasn't my

[01:16:40] house or someone else and it actually occurred to me at the time I thought oh I'm actually thinking

[01:16:45] about what's happening now I'm not having my own drama in my head waiting for him to finish speaking

[01:16:49] so I can say my thing and get out of this awkward situation which I hadn't realised I had my whole

[01:16:54] life this kind of awkward social thing because you're like hiding from direct awareness of the person

[01:16:59] but without realizing it this years ago and ever since then I just face-to-face speak communicating

[01:17:04] with somebody it's completely different it's just listening to the things they're saying usually

[01:17:09] they're not using words as tools they're just buying else emotional and it's whatever but you

[01:17:14] you just get it just the noise gets quieter but you still have to work and think and put the

[01:17:19] effort in but it's nowhere near as tight as it was before I mean I've struggled to remember like two

[01:17:23] movements at the same time before so being really used to move my knee this this this they want to move

[01:17:28] but all the pelvis this other directs to what happened at the same time I want this you know like

[01:17:33] try to remember the words to get it to actually happen in reality you have to clarify

[01:17:38] and words because otherwise it's just a bunch of big feeling thoughts feeling thoughting you're

[01:17:43] just kind of wanting over there and you're not really clear but is your body just doesn't know what

[01:17:47] to do either of course it doesn't you're not clear yeah so and just that I in terms of reading as well

[01:17:52] longer more complex than I used to and keep the idea to read like an old book where they just

[01:17:58] were here they're not and it's all connected and the long sentences and there's a modern person

[01:18:03] with internet you're not used to this anymore much better than that now this is from working with

[01:18:07] qualified bodies okay it's the working on the body can help you thinking and working on your

[01:18:11] thinking can help your body yeah and it makes sense you know even from a euro physiological

[01:18:16] perspective it makes sense if you're growing connections between all the various centers that are

[01:18:22] involved in these processes and actions and it just makes sense that executive functions

[01:18:28] like reading a boring long book it isn't summarized in a thread would also become easier

[01:18:34] it does make sense right yeah what's the structure of things and how are things interconnected at all

[01:18:42] it always like what's the whole and person back to the whole rather than just being

[01:18:46] gone into each word and each sentence or each feeling each sensation is the same problem

[01:18:52] thoughting is just getting you're getting drawn you're when you're thoughting you're just doing

[01:18:57] something you're giving consent to each thing a pot and a pot pops into your mind you go oh yeah

[01:19:02] and you go along with that you start thinking about that more you just gave consent to this thing

[01:19:06] that appeared you sensation you start thinking about you know you're so quick you don't realize

[01:19:10] that you're you have the intention to direct your attention on that thing that just appeared

[01:19:16] you know I mean so like the attention is the literally you decide where you're going to put it but

[01:19:19] it is so quick people don't realize they're doing it they just get a feeling and then they're

[01:19:23] immediately down in the feeling in their back they're pain in the back they're immediately

[01:19:26] in the feeling in the back and then they move around a bit try to make it feel a bit more comfortable

[01:19:29] and they're like that's just completely they're at a victim of that feeling now they're just

[01:19:34] reacting you know reactivated as you're saying and you don't need to you can drop the intention

[01:19:39] to control your attention by putting it on that thing that's just appear you don't need to do

[01:19:44] it but you will not automatically do it because that's the habit you can train yourself you have to

[01:19:48] train yourself as well by authentic so if meditation and movement practice is an intelligent movement

[01:19:53] about this one I'm all thinking complex more activities or you just say no because it's more

[01:19:58] pop up this is like people are this false kind of romantic image of being focused where I'm going

[01:20:03] to be focused on leaving things or working this one thing and nothing else will come in the mind

[01:20:08] there's no happens what happens is you just learn to not if consent to things that ask you for

[01:20:13] your attention give a period everything wants to attention will I make it put my attention not

[01:20:16] follow that and say yes to that I was just saying no not now it just drops away if I reappear

[01:20:22] straight after then you just drop the intention to follow again so like for me focus is a it's negative

[01:20:27] it's dropping the intentions to follow dropping your intentions to just follow all

[01:20:33] whatever things appear and only be left with the one thing that you want to do rather than try

[01:20:38] a hammer and force yourself to stay on the one thing you know how many different you're basically

[01:20:42] just dropping all the other things and then eventually things bother you so it's not like first of

[01:20:46] all it's like a computer game or a stop what I give rid of all the things you don't try not to

[01:20:51] respond to all the things and react to them and then eventually they just stop pestering as

[01:20:55] match and it's less things or you'll get one or two things will come through really strong and these

[01:20:59] are kind of your issues usually the little things that are bothering you usually there's some

[01:21:02] emotional thing behind it as well so you can get to the root of these things as well kind of a type

[01:21:06] of was this kind of self therapy by accident as well you're just by sheer awareness yeah it's

[01:21:12] interesting you mentioned commanding yourself because the zen master I teach with he says that

[01:21:18] a very effective technique if you're having a lot of thoughting going on during zazen is to just

[01:21:24] very loudly and firmly say no to yourself which is actually very effective yeah well that's it

[01:21:31] you're whittled in consent yeah yeah yeah it's seen like because you because that's like you have

[01:21:36] the really useful to get clean and there's a difference in attention and intentions because they're

[01:21:40] connected you know like your attention you can have an intention to control your attention in certain

[01:21:45] ways or to just let or not to control it and just let things come up that's another type of meditation

[01:21:50] you can do you don't need to you just drop the intentions to pull in and then see what comes next

[01:21:54] he'll come next yeah yeah just quickly on there I did notice when editing the Christopher Hyatt

[01:22:01] seminar video which is happening by the way I just had not have much time lately that there's

[01:22:07] several sections where people are being given commands and they just can't follow them it's

[01:22:11] actually quite funny to watch did you notice that when you you know we're involved in that kind of

[01:22:17] thing or there were several instances where I don't remember these incidents but yeah I mean

[01:22:22] I get this all the time when my lessons all the time you just who simple commands people can't

[01:22:25] follow and then it's not that they're a bad person and they're not looking it's that people in general

[01:22:29] just aren't trained to connect words to actions now the birds are just this thing you do in your head

[01:22:35] and then so when they obviously their words are the command if they want to do them they just can't

[01:22:38] remember them all because they don't know what the structure of it how it connects they they're

[01:22:42] just not used to convert translating the words into action so like I said very basic pick up

[01:22:47] can you pick up the stick in your right hand can you hold it as if it's a sword can you show me which

[01:22:53] end of the stick would be the tip of the sword okay this end yeah far end okay now can you do a

[01:22:57] movement that would make the tip of the sword touch the bottom of your sternum bone with your elbow

[01:23:02] pointing forward so then they'll try and do it they'll do it in a way that doesn't do that or

[01:23:05] they'll put it picked up in the wrong hands or they're not holding it like a sword I mean no one

[01:23:09] like they're holding a weird way know how you hold the sword again that's a mental tool it's not

[01:23:13] really a sword just stick and I'm just trying to get them to do a movement with the shoulder and

[01:23:16] they just can't follow basic commands at the beginning but then this is what you train the follow my

[01:23:20] commands first and then they start giving themselves commands and then they're following your

[01:23:24] commands and it's kind of way of developing discipline but in the seminar don't remember what was

[01:23:29] the example you saw well there were several people on the couch and they were on the mattress

[01:23:35] and whatever it was and they were being directed to do certain movements and they just get basically

[01:23:40] the same thing you're describing now they couldn't like do it properly I think they couldn't follow

[01:23:44] commands I think at some point Dr. Hayd explicitly mentioned it about this particular individual having

[01:23:51] trouble following through with with commands and I think he can castigate them but he was like you

[01:23:57] you've always had trouble following commands having you or something like that you know putting them

[01:24:01] on the spot as he does which yeah I just just saw it was just interesting for sure the other thing is

[01:24:07] just in terms of this I suppose as we finish up is you know people's labeling and

[01:24:14] thoughting is actually quite low resolution and one of the good exercises Calvin recommends

[01:24:22] is to write write labels on a window in non obviously non permanent marker if anyone tries

[01:24:29] make sure you got the right pants you go up to a window and you sit down and then you

[01:24:34] write over the top you know like tree or bird or you know something like that things that you see

[01:24:40] outside and then you know after a little while of doing that then write your thoughts on the window

[01:24:46] so you're upper level thoughts sort of popping up and if you know maybe then try to write them

[01:24:53] in a different language and at some point the exercise becomes so ridiculous that it shows the

[01:25:00] absolute you know disconnectness that we typically experience in day-to-day consciousness you know

[01:25:06] in that that thoughting type consciousness it just really highlights and drives home the disconnect

[01:25:13] between words and like actual objects as they are and just our random you know thoughting can be

[01:25:19] because fucking out of it so disconnected sometimes it's quite absurd so yeah it was interesting exercise

[01:25:26] that he mentions there's a way of highlighting this so I think you know a lot of this and it sounds

[01:25:31] like you know the work you're doing is very much geared towards making the cognitive process of

[01:25:36] thinking tangibly connected to things that are actually happening and where words are involved

[01:25:41] and concepts are involved they're involved to offer a very high resolution cognition of things

[01:25:48] that are happening even if some of things and images even if they're thinking of images often it's

[01:25:53] like there's there's words and concepts there because the image is defined and created because

[01:25:58] they understand the concepts sure in the word yeah you know it's like someone looks like I made

[01:26:03] myself look like a genius at chess once even the complete chess I'm rubbish at it but I just

[01:26:08] learned this trick for beating people in four moves so I chucked two guys that apart they were

[01:26:13] bouncing off I do the chess they were so I say I beat them both my thing off I just my

[01:26:18] thought back and I mean it's ridiculous two people completely yeah they were thinking two people

[01:26:23] was in advantage I don't see how two people was in advantage in chess but anyway there's two of

[01:26:27] them and then I did this one simple trick of four moves beat them and you know they were wanting to

[01:26:31] fight me and stuff but I was just like pure security it was like I just knew the I just knew the trick

[01:26:38] and did it and looked like I knew I was great chess it wasn't just like so you can do that with

[01:26:43] that there's many things people are doing that we're or it's like that where they know the tricks

[01:26:48] of thinking tricks whether it's maths or coders some sure do it and you know whoever athletes

[01:26:53] have tricks as well there's certain things they think or do at certain points that they know helps them

[01:26:57] you know they sometimes it's higher level cognitive control you know like yes you're tired now but

[01:27:02] you'll get your second wins in or whether it's you know I really have to when I do this when I'm

[01:27:07] swinging the golf club like this I I know it always feels wrong that's a certain point but I just

[01:27:12] do it anyway even look feels wrong because I know that's I know from practice that's what works

[01:27:15] better even look feels a bit weird rather than just trying to make it feel nice but that's

[01:27:20] again this higher cognitive control so like all the time we're using this stuff you know like

[01:27:24] sometimes it's more explicit than others but we I want someone who becomes really dysfunctional

[01:27:29] is when they it's completely separate there's just no connection at all and like a proper

[01:27:33] person in a proper old style silums were they insane would be that's what they're like it's just

[01:27:38] they have all their own symbology and the words and all these things mean things to them in their head

[01:27:43] but have no connection or with the structure of the outside world and they're just crazy we just

[01:27:49] see them as crazy but really what's happening is they're all their thinking is completely disconnected

[01:27:53] from outside so whatever they say or see or think no one can relate to it because or they they can relate

[01:27:58] to in certain degrees where it meets reality and where it doesn't and now some of the people

[01:28:03] working when I'm trying under you know they work to understand the structure of the symbol

[01:28:08] of the person's using internally and then it times to help them that way but at end of day they only

[01:28:14] become normal or okay is when they start being able to function by doing thing you know they're

[01:28:19] functional because they're doing things you know they're just saying rocking back and forward

[01:28:23] showing around the words of whoever it is I mean the cruziopsy is good enough in the whole idea

[01:28:27] the book is called science and sunny because that's what he's saying you say when people are

[01:28:31] totally lost in obstructions it's whether they're philosophy whether they're in schizophrenics

[01:28:35] and then in stainless island or whether they're professors of philosophy they're just completely

[01:28:40] lost in these obstructions aren't connected with reality and they have absidine where they think

[01:28:46] the words are the real thing and then you fit reality enough there for other than the words meant

[01:28:50] to be coming from abstracted out of the reality that's why you call science and sunny it's the same issue

[01:28:55] in those it's probably the best book for dealing with thought and really I think about it.

[01:29:00] Quite good you know according to Ian McGill-Christ Schizophrenia is a left brain overemphasis or dysfunction

[01:29:09] so I always in a way logically would have thought it would have had something to do with the right

[01:29:13] hemisphere of the brain but no apparently it's completely a left brain problem which makes sense

[01:29:18] in regards to what you're putting down here sure because it is kind of like a disembodied

[01:29:24] abstract disconnection from a holistic yeah and there's that there's a book also that one of

[01:29:29] McGill-Christ's influences in his first book Master of Nemesis. I forget the name of it but it's about

[01:29:36] basically schizophrenia and modernism in schizophrenia or something like this is called and the guy

[01:29:42] was showing how there was a relationship between some of the more abstract weird art movements they

[01:29:47] got more and more abstract and away from reality and this was kind of linked to this kind of thing

[01:29:53] there's a similar way of thinking is schizophrenia and stuff and yeah that would make sense left

[01:29:58] but I mean a left brain art would be very abstract and now a lot of contemporary art is actually

[01:30:03] very left brain where they just have some bad political metaphor and then just to just find

[01:30:07] some trash or whatever to demonstrate this metaphor there's just really just a juvenile political

[01:30:13] opinion. You know polluted brains are still connected to muscle and sinew so yeah thought

[01:30:19] thinking still be very well look at everything everything is determined by thoughting really isn't it

[01:30:25] I mean there's so few people that know the difference. Yeah sorry yeah so I mean the words are

[01:30:31] desperate to get out so like if the person don't put them to action in a structured way you know

[01:30:35] using them as tools to do things and to create things and whatever the the person's forced to get

[01:30:41] them out by just verbalizing nonsense on the internet yeah like it needs it needs an outlet so like

[01:30:47] as we say it's still connected to issue and whatever so the person does translate it into

[01:30:51] actions in a way but it's completely dysfunctional and disconnect is disconnected is the words are

[01:30:56] disconnected from the actions that's what the thing is and that's in my work that's a gradually

[01:31:01] building up the connection between those I mean I don't talk about explicitly the lesson

[01:31:05] because it's distracting but that's what we're doing we're just gradually making thoughts link

[01:31:10] up with actions and then verifying that they actually happened he's in video rather than just

[01:31:14] going by the feeling because that's probably the problem the fasting of feeling automatically for

[01:31:19] everything is a part of thoughting they're not separate things really interesting the words

[01:31:24] thought and just feel the words you know there's like the word of the feelings of the experience in

[01:31:30] maybe you won't agree with this in its totality but in my opinion the feeling of self is really

[01:31:38] just grabbing on to thoughting for most people like it's there's nothing particularly conscious or

[01:31:44] directed about their thinking and what they determine as as their self and one of the ways I like

[01:31:52] to explain quote unquote no self which is a term that really hurts feelings and understandably so

[01:31:58] when you really get angry about it like some people do it is a challenging outlook but I think

[01:32:04] it's kind of true in a sense because if you're just thoughting all the time and then you go and do an

[01:32:09] exercise you could do the posture exercise or you could you know whatever you want to do you

[01:32:14] could do a bit of yoga we do meditation and then 20 minutes later your entire sense is completely

[01:32:20] changed and the self that was being reactive before and all the things you thought were important

[01:32:26] completely drop away and your feeling of what happens is completely different then what does that

[01:32:32] imply about about the self certainly implies that what we commonly think of the separate self is

[01:32:39] clearly nonsense and a lot of the things that we cherish really just products of a detrimental

[01:32:46] physiology in many cases and by definition not consciously directed the values and morals and

[01:32:55] opinions that we all go around blabbering on about likewise not self directed or very rarely are

[01:33:02] for most people they're just kind of like these flailing robots just blabbering out their programming

[01:33:09] and I would like to think that this kind of dualism between thinking and thoughting is useful

[01:33:19] for breaking down these tendencies and to become a more conscious willful and directed human being

[01:33:28] which is I guess what the bio individual path is all about so yeah those are my finishing words

[01:33:34] do you have anything you'd like to finish with how I missed anything on anything I have

[01:33:39] that's um no it's a good way just that the relationship between thought and thinking they're both

[01:33:44] going to be happening all the time it's not like there's you don't want to get into like this idea

[01:33:49] of some utopian world of clear thinking and you're not going to have any random thoughts and all

[01:33:54] that's not going to happen all that's going to happen is you're just going to gradually get more

[01:33:58] to the thinking side and lower the thought inside and you can have moments where you completely

[01:34:03] clear and silent if you do indifferent practice and then you have other moments where you're just

[01:34:07] really struggling to think things through and reasoning and thoughtings interfering with it and

[01:34:11] it's you know you you still have to do it anyway and so it's useful to remember that they're both

[01:34:16] intertwined the same way it's conscious and unconscious or intertwined some things are coming up

[01:34:20] some things are affecting you some things aren't in it's just a case of higher level is more for

[01:34:25] guiding and directing you as a whole rather than pop down full control it's not like that it's

[01:34:32] more kind of you just need to stop thinking about these things has been separate very good

[01:34:36] and the quality of the thoughting can change drastically as well which is important to remember with

[01:34:43] yes yeah we can talk about that nice of thoughts there's no I mean I'm all staying bad things about

[01:34:49] people chasing good feelings but the no better feelings are nicer

[01:34:53] both feelings obviously I'll take it I'll take it's how you get it every time it's how you get

[01:34:59] you know and some people are a bit too much on the no pain no gain side of it and I'm really like

[01:35:04] that but I'm also not on the everything needs to feel good side either and to make sure that they

[01:35:09] don't get in the way of the higher executive functionality of living life because you're a you're

[01:35:14] a human being you're not a mollusk so um you know in that respect you know remember these things

[01:35:19] are not so well so people have it or they think that the higher and higher level reasoning and

[01:35:24] thinking that somehow not natural and everything else is not so well it's grown up look at the

[01:35:29] braid the way the brain is structured it's growing up on top of the plant there's all these other

[01:35:33] things so if you want to just drop all the thinking to be on an intellectual and just get back

[01:35:37] in the body then you're devolving you're being anti-human but also that doesn't mean it's separate

[01:35:43] than you you know it's uh you don't need to make a dualism out of it there's different levels

[01:35:47] of the same thing going on yeah different scoops are there I just came up sure and and if you

[01:35:52] you know if you want to use a dualism for you know metaphorical purpose so for example

[01:35:57] I was writing recently on Heracletus and this idea of the unity of opposites and how having

[01:36:02] opposites, optioning harmoniously is very important and I think that these things can be thought of

[01:36:08] probably in that sense definitely physiologically they can since there's a time to be active as a

[01:36:13] time for rest and if you can maximize all these different things seeing them for they are not

[01:36:19] indulging in just one thing but trying to maximize the amplitude of each of these things then

[01:36:28] you're just going to be more human a more effective human being and the the ability to relax for

[01:36:34] example, the ability to switch off is going to accentuate the things that you want to do with the

[01:36:40] higher executive function and the opposite is true as well as we're just being talking about so

[01:36:45] yeah I love it it's a good chance you just need to think of thinking as another organic function

[01:36:52] rather than being separate from everything else and you know it's we're doing practical things with

[01:36:57] you just do things with it then it's a lot of these promises resolve themselves and there's no

[01:37:01] issue anymore yeah there's no space for all of the thoughting it's just not it just there's

[01:37:06] other things coming up now been hard time thinking of solving a problem the solutions and ideas for

[01:37:11] that problem will come in your head later whether you want them or not later because you've put

[01:37:15] the time in and earlier I will that's coming in instead of thought you know like yeah

[01:37:18] of course in a real sense that's what the thoughting is actually doing so the default mode network

[01:37:23] is mulling over things so your experience with the thoughting is actually that process of you know

[01:37:29] the brain or whatever trying to work out the answer that comes to you. Yeah you've yourself choosing

[01:37:33] yourself intentionally choosing that which things you want to mull over they're useful to for you

[01:37:39] practically because your brain's going to be mulling over making the decisions anyway at a certain

[01:37:43] level so you'll just put in the ones you want and drop in the intentions to follow the ones you don't

[01:37:48] want but that's training yourself it's not like a decision you have to train yourself into that yeah

[01:37:54] and I'm still terrible at compared to but I just much better than I was and I'm comparing me

[01:37:59] to before I'm not comparing me to someone who's not already much better the stuff than me.

[01:38:03] Yeah that's like that's that's a mental tool actually you know like to do that don't cook like

[01:38:08] you're going to as a human you're going to be comparing things part of being human is comparing

[01:38:12] things you know there's like evolution reasons for comparison either or comparing things kind

[01:38:17] of sometimes you have this sort of act you have to decide but so you'd be well learning to

[01:38:22] compare things in a more useful way and it's more useful to compare yourself to your older behavior

[01:38:29] than and compare now to then the next it can be where you now to someone else next.

[01:38:32] Yeah you'll get a different history. Sure and you'll only met you can usefully measure yourself

[01:38:39] against anyway I guess that you're really well. But that isn't something I came to I didn't come

[01:38:43] to that by feeling that I heard someone say something like that and I thought oh that's a good

[01:38:47] to cut idea so it's totally conceptual and then I started applying it to myself doing something

[01:38:51] with it so like it's it's not separate you know they start like it's a feeling now but it wasn't

[01:38:57] that idea my name when I started you know I remember in the beginning you know you're struggling

[01:39:01] it feels wrong when you start doing things the first time but if you thought if you're actually

[01:39:06] thinking you know this is the right thing to do or you at least it's the thing you're going to

[01:39:10] attempt to do this time to see what happens and you can just get yourself to do that you're not

[01:39:14] relying on this you're not trying to replace it with a different feeling of discipline or a feeling

[01:39:21] of you know no pain again or you're not swapping it for another feeling you're using the higher level

[01:39:25] thinking to order yourself around no matter what you feel like within reason that's the way I

[01:39:29] look at it so it's not like it's more like a warm cozy self-discipline rather than a hard harsh

[01:39:35] self-discipline. Yeah